You need to understand. Or at least I want you to understand. I'm not Catholic as a pin on my lapel, or as a sports team for whom I root. I am Catholic. I do not prefer Catholicism; it is quite simply, the only choice that makes sense.
When you're on the journey from Reformed/Protestant to Catholic, you don't really know that's what you're doing. I was just asking questions. It's not right to say the answers didn't satisfy me; they ought not satisfy anyone. I've talked with other people stuck in groupthink, and that's what happens: slogans are said to make the inquisitor shut up, and keep the others from wondering. I guess it works on some people. Not me. And it never has. It's not anti-Reformed to ask where the ecumenical councils came from; neither is it to ask where the end-point of a(n) hermeneutical process (or at least what it looks like) terminates. You can blather on about authorial intent 'til you are 172, but unless you know what it is, you're dodging the question. It's like saying, "It's not the destination, it's the journey that matters," and being OK with it. Let me be blunt: I don't care if you have 8 exegetical degrees and have read the Bible 1000 times; that's relativistic crap, and someone should say it. Let's keep going.
If we are part of a movement that made the basic charge to the effect that the institutional church and leadership had been corrupted, and that the plain gospel had been lost, you'd better have a method of recovery that delivers the goods. You're responsible if your answer brings up 12 more questions. You're responsible if heretics use your argument to draw conclusions you don't intend. That should be a flag that you have made a poor argument. And don't you dare say I called you an Arian; I didn't. I merely said that anyone can use your argument to justify what they hold. This is what ad hoc means: holding stubbornly to a conclusion that isn't required by the premises. You need to give me a reason why Nicea got it right, but Trent got it wrong. By the way, the canon was defined 9 years after the final form of that Creed was known. Maybe I could quote something we know to be Scripture now, but I'm certainly not going to know it as a stable, known rule of faith, as your position seems to require. I'll overstate this to make the point: The bishops at Nicea did not use Scripture to settle the question; they used themselves, empowered by the Holy Spirit, to settle it. Right then and there, they defined the true doctrine, but more than that, they defined "us" and "not us." Or, to be more blunt, they defined the Church and schisms from her. Actually, this had been done several times. This is why Tertullian (God help him) was able to say essentially, "Don't give the Scripture to heretics." He knew that truth we always knew: every heretic has his verse. That's why the Church has to be visible. To be in schism is to separate from the community holding to the divine truth. To be in heresy is to knowingly hold something contrary to the Church. If you can't see it, you can't find it. If you can't find it, you can't know what to believe. That's real simple.
On the other hand, insisting on a visible line of episcopal ordination from the Apostles against the Reformers is superfluous if it doesn't terminate somewhere. Luckily, that person had always been the Bishop of Rome. Now, does that mean the other bishops are pointless? Of course not. I've never met the Pope. He has never personally instructed me in anything. I have met my bishop. He has taught me tons of things. The link is real, though. The Pope has personally saved and preserved the truth historically several times. Most of the other bishops fell to the Arian heresy, and the pope stood unmoved. And truth prevailed. That was the promise to Peter and the Church in action. Fabian gave his life in 251 when Germanic hordes overran Rome. As a side-note: Can you even imagine the worldwide freak-out if barbarians murdered the pope today? In this supposedly secular hopeless age, I recall that the acknowledged leader of the world and dozens of heads of state attended the funeral of our last pope. I digress.
I enjoy pointing out the contradiction in acknowledging that, if I were Reformed (or any other Protestant), all those people in ecclesiastical authority over me could be wrong, any juridical action could be wrong, any time I read my Bible, I could be wrong, and yet, somehow, we're supposed to believe that we should stay in this arrangement. If I believed "what the Bible says" leads me to Eutychianism, you couldn't stop me. If I wanted to find some Eutychians and join them, we could simply say, "Well, the Church is invisible, and we're right, anyway." I can do it today. I can join a "church" that smiles on my sexual sins (for example) and still believe I have a part with Christ. Who's to say? All I need is an "expert," and a few people to say I'm right. Bam. We're now a "church" that's a viable option. How do you know the Reformation wasn't the same thing? It was. "They got it wrong. They're corrupt. We're preserving the true faith. That Eucharistic doctrine isn't part of the deposit. They are just making it up to cover their other sins." Am I hitting close to home yet? Or let me put it abstractly: You want me to believe dogmatically in the determinations of a community formed by the notion that any visible community
could be in error? Why isn't that absurd on its face? Have we failed to notice that I ultimately decide when that error has occurred? Some remedy for my individualism. If I hold the Ace, they don't. No amount of appreciations or bookshelves changes this fact: An invisible Church renders all visible manifestations suspect, and worthless. Yes, worthless.
That truth in common found itself visibly bound up with the institutions of the bishops in apostolic succession (ecumenical council, more precisely) and with the man who defines them: the successor of Peter. Purged of all my biases that a certain thing could not be true or from God, it only remained to apply the same truth-in-context principle to history as I had been taught about the Scriptures: the human or "earthy" elements are not extraneous to the ascertaining of the truth; they are part of it. To submit and be Catholic is distinct from a frank acknowledgment that the claim to that authority is reasonable, contra those who say you have to be Catholic to see why. That's just silly. It was still within my power to do whatever I wished with whatever I knew. In truth, it still is. But I'd be a moron to leave. [So you're a moron who stays?--ed.] Yes.
So, for the Christian world who dissents, especially Protestants, you have two choices: you can attempt to fashion a creedal minimalism that smooths over all your internal disagreements, accepting the dogmatic agnosticism that results, or you can inquire as to the basis of our agreement, establishing where, how, and when the commonality was established. You owe it to yourself to find it.
When you're on the journey from Reformed/Protestant to Catholic, you don't really know that's what you're doing. I was just asking questions. It's not right to say the answers didn't satisfy me; they ought not satisfy anyone. I've talked with other people stuck in groupthink, and that's what happens: slogans are said to make the inquisitor shut up, and keep the others from wondering. I guess it works on some people. Not me. And it never has. It's not anti-Reformed to ask where the ecumenical councils came from; neither is it to ask where the end-point of a(n) hermeneutical process (or at least what it looks like) terminates. You can blather on about authorial intent 'til you are 172, but unless you know what it is, you're dodging the question. It's like saying, "It's not the destination, it's the journey that matters," and being OK with it. Let me be blunt: I don't care if you have 8 exegetical degrees and have read the Bible 1000 times; that's relativistic crap, and someone should say it. Let's keep going.
If we are part of a movement that made the basic charge to the effect that the institutional church and leadership had been corrupted, and that the plain gospel had been lost, you'd better have a method of recovery that delivers the goods. You're responsible if your answer brings up 12 more questions. You're responsible if heretics use your argument to draw conclusions you don't intend. That should be a flag that you have made a poor argument. And don't you dare say I called you an Arian; I didn't. I merely said that anyone can use your argument to justify what they hold. This is what ad hoc means: holding stubbornly to a conclusion that isn't required by the premises. You need to give me a reason why Nicea got it right, but Trent got it wrong. By the way, the canon was defined 9 years after the final form of that Creed was known. Maybe I could quote something we know to be Scripture now, but I'm certainly not going to know it as a stable, known rule of faith, as your position seems to require. I'll overstate this to make the point: The bishops at Nicea did not use Scripture to settle the question; they used themselves, empowered by the Holy Spirit, to settle it. Right then and there, they defined the true doctrine, but more than that, they defined "us" and "not us." Or, to be more blunt, they defined the Church and schisms from her. Actually, this had been done several times. This is why Tertullian (God help him) was able to say essentially, "Don't give the Scripture to heretics." He knew that truth we always knew: every heretic has his verse. That's why the Church has to be visible. To be in schism is to separate from the community holding to the divine truth. To be in heresy is to knowingly hold something contrary to the Church. If you can't see it, you can't find it. If you can't find it, you can't know what to believe. That's real simple.
On the other hand, insisting on a visible line of episcopal ordination from the Apostles against the Reformers is superfluous if it doesn't terminate somewhere. Luckily, that person had always been the Bishop of Rome. Now, does that mean the other bishops are pointless? Of course not. I've never met the Pope. He has never personally instructed me in anything. I have met my bishop. He has taught me tons of things. The link is real, though. The Pope has personally saved and preserved the truth historically several times. Most of the other bishops fell to the Arian heresy, and the pope stood unmoved. And truth prevailed. That was the promise to Peter and the Church in action. Fabian gave his life in 251 when Germanic hordes overran Rome. As a side-note: Can you even imagine the worldwide freak-out if barbarians murdered the pope today? In this supposedly secular hopeless age, I recall that the acknowledged leader of the world and dozens of heads of state attended the funeral of our last pope. I digress.
I enjoy pointing out the contradiction in acknowledging that, if I were Reformed (or any other Protestant), all those people in ecclesiastical authority over me could be wrong, any juridical action could be wrong, any time I read my Bible, I could be wrong, and yet, somehow, we're supposed to believe that we should stay in this arrangement. If I believed "what the Bible says" leads me to Eutychianism, you couldn't stop me. If I wanted to find some Eutychians and join them, we could simply say, "Well, the Church is invisible, and we're right, anyway." I can do it today. I can join a "church" that smiles on my sexual sins (for example) and still believe I have a part with Christ. Who's to say? All I need is an "expert," and a few people to say I'm right. Bam. We're now a "church" that's a viable option. How do you know the Reformation wasn't the same thing? It was. "They got it wrong. They're corrupt. We're preserving the true faith. That Eucharistic doctrine isn't part of the deposit. They are just making it up to cover their other sins." Am I hitting close to home yet? Or let me put it abstractly: You want me to believe dogmatically in the determinations of a community formed by the notion that any visible community
could be in error? Why isn't that absurd on its face? Have we failed to notice that I ultimately decide when that error has occurred? Some remedy for my individualism. If I hold the Ace, they don't. No amount of appreciations or bookshelves changes this fact: An invisible Church renders all visible manifestations suspect, and worthless. Yes, worthless.
That truth in common found itself visibly bound up with the institutions of the bishops in apostolic succession (ecumenical council, more precisely) and with the man who defines them: the successor of Peter. Purged of all my biases that a certain thing could not be true or from God, it only remained to apply the same truth-in-context principle to history as I had been taught about the Scriptures: the human or "earthy" elements are not extraneous to the ascertaining of the truth; they are part of it. To submit and be Catholic is distinct from a frank acknowledgment that the claim to that authority is reasonable, contra those who say you have to be Catholic to see why. That's just silly. It was still within my power to do whatever I wished with whatever I knew. In truth, it still is. But I'd be a moron to leave. [So you're a moron who stays?--ed.] Yes.
So, for the Christian world who dissents, especially Protestants, you have two choices: you can attempt to fashion a creedal minimalism that smooths over all your internal disagreements, accepting the dogmatic agnosticism that results, or you can inquire as to the basis of our agreement, establishing where, how, and when the commonality was established. You owe it to yourself to find it.
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